OC 3

[Ron@Optimum]

A coupe of last points.  Troy and others are certainly capable of using Pro products correctly, but many are not - they will not prep properly, apply correctly, wait the necessary cure time or mistreat the coatings after and feel no compunction about going on social media and blaming the manufacturer.  And there's no way we have time to "interview" every DYI person to determine their experience, so we chose discretion over valor.  Secondly, Optimum stands behind the warranty - we supply the product if recoating is necessary and have paid installers when the original has quit (or been fired for poor performance), even refunded money, so while rare, there is a financial risk along with our reputation.  Finally the idea that other industries don't protect or limit access to pro products is bunk.  I've tried and failed to duplicate the results from lawn care and pest control companies, only be be told I can't buy the stuff they use. 

I will openly admit I don't always agree with Dr G's decisions on products and marketing, but I've never known him to chose profit over quality, service, or what he thinks is the right thing to do.  And my eyes crossed over the green font as well...

[bird-keeper]

21 hours ago, Ron@Optimum said:

A coupe of last points.  Troy and others are certainly capable of using Pro products correctly, but many are not - they will not prep properly, apply correctly, wait the necessary cure time or mistreat the coatings after and feel no compunction about going on social media and blaming the manufacturer.  And there's no way we have time to "interview" every DYI person to determine their experience, so we chose discretion over valor.  Secondly, Optimum stands behind the warranty - we supply the product if recoating is necessary and have paid installers when the original has quit (or been fired for poor performance), even refunded money, so while rare, there is a financial risk along with our reputation.  Finally the idea that other industries don't protect or limit access to pro products is bunk.  I've tried and failed to duplicate the results from lawn care and pest control companies, only be be told I can't buy the stuff they use. 

I will openly admit I don't always agree with Dr G's decisions on products and marketing, but I've never known him to chose profit over quality, service, or what he thinks is the right thing to do.  And my eyes crossed over the green font as well...

On the lawn care and pest control point, often times you "can't buy the stuff they use" because they are using their own branded and blended products. There are a few small exceptions for products that require a license to purchase but for the most part, there's absolutely nothing special about those "proprietary blends" of grass seed, fertilizer, herbicides, etc. You could easily source all the ingredients yourself and put down a comparable "blend" of products that does the exact thing as the stuff you can't buy.  There's actually an entire industry built around the DIY lawn care enthusiast who wants professional products. 

To relate it back to coatings, you can think of your OTC Weed-B-Gon and Scott's type products in lawn care as the consumer grade coatings (Gloss Coat, CQuartz, CSL, etc.). They are "watered down" in a way so just about anybody can apply them without compromising some level of quality, but don't last as long or aren't as potent or don't cover as much as the pro product. But there's an entire group of people out there who want that pro level product without having to pay a professional company to do it for them.

I'm not trying to convince anyone at OPT that this is the way you have to do things, but I definitely think there is a market out there for it and you don't have to sacrifice quality or profit to do it.

[bcwang]

On 3/11/2021 at 9:52 AM, Tug Bankert said:

Absolutely love it. I have done 3 so far. I have not hit the learning curve yet but I'm getting there. If it gets a layer of plus on top it is ridiculously slick and hydrophobic 

Are you saying pro 3 is actually not as slick and hydrophobic as pro plus?  I would have thought Dr G would have really optimized this coating to be the best and if he could have made the top slicker and more hydrophobic he would have done so already.   There must be some downsides to adding plus on top or he would have made that one of the coats as part of this product. 

[Tug Bankert]

From what I know to be true about coatings and opti coat specifically, is that you cannot make a coating hard and slick at the same time. Pro 3 is much thicker and harder than pro. The reason pro plus exists is because of water spotting and adds hydroponics in a separate coating. Since pro plus is slicker than pro because it is different chemical component, pro plus is also slicker than pro 3 by itself. Adding plus to the top of pro 3 is a real game changer and makes 3 the longest performing coating available. If you don't put plus on top it is still the longest performing coating. Plus is just all slick, gloss and hydrophobics with no hardness. It relys on being put on the top and cannot stand alone. 

[Ron@Optimum]

Tug, always appreciate your Pro insights.  I have not tested OC3 yet (Dr G promises to install on my new car, but I don't get to Memphis often).  There are a lot of characteristics expected of ceramic coatings, including durability, UV protection, chemical resistance, hardness, gloss, slickness, etc.  The chemistry to make all this happen sometimes works at cross purposes - the conflict between SiC and Si02.  Optimum's original ceramic was durable (still on cars 14 years later), hard, and chemically resistant, but it wasn't as "shiny" and slick as some others on the market.  The Si02 components in competitors made them shiny and slick but reduce durability, hardness, and resistance, requiring re-application/reloading.  Even though pro installers don't even touch cars (slickness), customers wanted those features, so Dr G formulated Plus.  The effort to be all things to all people would give Dr G grey hair, if he wasn't bald!

[Mr.Outback]

One curiosity, given Pro3, like Pro+, is a multi-layer coating, is how the coating "wears" over time.  Does it change properties as different layers become exposed?  Or do the layers actually blend together to create a solid "whole layer" that is uniform in appearance and behavior (Pro+ apparently does this)?

FYI Yvan commented about the number of times an expert can "prep" a vehicle to receive a new or different coating: about 4 or 5 times before there's no more clear coat to protect.

Per Ron's comments, one detailing outfit now offers a detailing spray that is supposedly fantastic wrt gloss, but lasts 1 - 2 days, max.

[Tug Bankert]

Opti coatings are technically not layers. They bond to each other and become "one" layer. In other words, The individual layers cannot wear off independently of each other. 

[bcwang]

3 hours ago, Tug Bankert said:

From what I know to be true about coatings and opti coat specifically, is that you cannot make a coating hard and slick at the same time. Pro 3 is much thicker and harder than pro. The reason pro plus exists is because of water spotting and adds hydroponics in a separate coating. Since pro plus is slicker than pro because it is different chemical component, pro plus is also slicker than pro 3 by itself. Adding plus to the top of pro 3 is a real game changer and makes 3 the longest performing coating available. If you don't put plus on top it is still the longest performing coating. Plus is just all slick, gloss and hydrophobics with no hardness. It relys on being put on the top and cannot stand alone. 

Since Dr G was already going with multi-layering, I wonder why he didn't just have a layer of plus or something similar in slickness and hydrophobics to be added as the top most layer, unless there was some technical reason not to do so.

So just how slick is Pro 3 alone?  How is the water beading?  Hopefully it's closer to plus levels than pro by itself.  I guess the question is, are customers going to complain that pro 3 is not slick and doesn't bead water well given how much they spend on it?

Did plus add any additional gloss over pro 3?

[Tug Bankert]

Most customers, and I would doubt any will be able to compare differences between opti coatings because most don't have cars coated in different ones. I also disagree with most who even focus on water beading because there is no final rinse with onr so you don't see beads. Plus the fact that dirt on the coating will reduce beading. So beading is not the goal, as in, who's costing beads the most. 

That being said, pro 3 adds a ton of depth of color but not gloss. It seems to be less glossy than pro by itself. I believe the reason is what Ron was saying about sio2. Sio2 is glossy but not durable. Sic is durable but not glossy so plus came out of that need to be glossy. Pro 3 is harder and thicker than pro so, big shock, its not as glossy. 

That being said, putting plus on top of 3 makes it glossier than pro plus. The biggest ease of cleaning difference I have seen with 3 and plus compared to pro plus is that when bugs smash into front end of pro plus, they tend to need to be scrubbed off gently. With 3 and plus they blow off with 1400 psi almost 100% with nothing remaining. Depending on the clear coat that it's stuck to (that does factor in to coating performance).

[Ron@Optimum]

I'm glad Tug made the point about layering - when Pro+ or OC3 are applied you call that layering since they go on separately, but after they bond it's not layers in the traditional sense.  The products become one with the clear coat with no discernible differences and that's why OC is so durable.

[Tug Bankert]

Once I understood this truth I realized opti is king

[bcwang]

1 hour ago, Tug Bankert said:

Most customers, and I would doubt any will be able to compare differences between opti coatings because most don't have cars coated in different ones. I also disagree with most who even focus on water beading because there is no final rinse with onr so you don't see beads. Plus the fact that dirt on the coating will reduce beading. So beading is not the goal, as in, who's costing beads the most. 

That being said, pro 3 adds a ton of depth of color but not gloss. It seems to be less glossy than pro by itself. I believe the reason is what Ron was saying about sio2. Sio2 is glossy but not durable. Sic is durable but not glossy so plus came out of that need to be glossy. Pro 3 is harder and thicker than pro so, big shock, its not as glossy. 

That being said, putting plus on top of 3 makes it glossier than pro plus. The biggest ease of cleaning difference I have seen with 3 and plus compared to pro plus is that when bugs smash into front end of pro plus, they tend to need to be scrubbed off gently. With 3 and plus they blow off with 1400 psi almost 100% with nothing remaining. Depending on the clear coat that it's stuck to (that does factor in to coating performance).

Very interesting that pro 3 adds depth of color but has less gloss.  

Does Pro 3 without plus have better dirt and bug release properties than pro plus?

The scratch/swirl resistance of the harder pro 3, wouldn't that be negated by the plus top coat not being as hard?

Since Dr G didn't formulate Pro 3 with the plus as a top coat, I wonder if it fuses the same way and stays permanent, such that the added gloss, hydrophobics, and slickness is lifetime as well.

[Mr.Outback]

Not quite sure how Pro+ can (?) bond to Pro3 given both coatings are designed to bond to clearcoat or paint.  I remember someone here remarking that to apply Pro3 to Pro+, one had to first polish Pro+ off (a chemical decon would not be enough).

[Tug Bankert]

Plus bond to pro 3 not pro. I think you are mistaken. Pro 3 cannot be applied to plus or pro plus. Only plus can be applied to pro 3 as the final layer. 

[bcwang]

Any micron measurement of the 5 layer pro3+plus topcoat?

Tug, since you experimented to find this combo worked well above, did you ever try extra layers of pro3 to see if it made any difference?  Like 3base+3top+1plus topcoat?

I remember the original pro couldn't layer or build extra film thickness, so pro3 must be something special that can layer into a thicker coating.