ORANGE PEEL

[ufourya]

Noob needs questions answered. Although my car has nice gloss, etc., it does have orange peel. This has brought to mind a number of questions:

 

I have viewed the wet-sanding video of the Porsche bumper. Although that was to remove something different, would an orange peel leveling proceed along the same lines? (In other words, what is the best method for leveling the paint?)

How thick is the typical clear coat? Base coat?

How much clear can safely be removed?

Do you think a paint thickness gauge is necessary?

Anything else I need to know?

 

I've got a rotary (not experienced) a PC, the sonus pads (Yellow, white, blue) Lake Country pads (orange, green, white, and black) OHC, OP, OSW and a bunch of other polishes. I've also got time.

 

Thanks a bunch!

[Bence]

Hi ufourya,

 

Although you have 4 posts already, welcome to the forum!

 

There is a definite chance to screw up wetsanding when you are inexperienced.

 

The paint film is a delicate, thin layer and the clearcoat, residing at the top is only a few microns thick. A factory paint is around 80-150 microns, a respray is around 250-400, but after a healthy panel banging the respray could be more than 800-900 microns (lots of primer/filler/poor body job/etc.).

 

Generally you have to play in the upper third of the clearcoat to be safe. UV protection swims up to the top layer when the paint is hardening. The orange peel effect is an unfortunate result of today's waterborne, thin and runny paints. When you inspect a car, the horizontal panels have no or generally less orange peel than the verticals. The thin paint can level better there, but on the vertical panels it cannot level and shows this typical flaw.

 

It is indeed disgusting, but it has a strange benefit: abrasive processes (washing, drying, dusting, etc.) can attack the "hills" of the orange peel while the valley remain intact. This ensures that the finish will have an acceptable shine to the untrained average eye. However, when you frequently clean your car in a swirlomatic tunnel wash, the brushes will take away the gloss of the hills and the valleys will stay shiny. You'll see a marmory surface. This is important info, because when you start wet (or dry = less aggressive) sanding the finish, you go over the area very lightly. No pressure. You will see a marmory surface where the hills are matte, flat and the valleys are shiny. Now you are reducing the orange peel, but you start to sand away the UV protection. Where it is still shiny (valleys), the film has the original protection, but where it is flat, you are already removing it. If you want to go further, you can sand a bit more to make the surface uniform. In the moment you reached this, you should stop. Always think of the UV protection of the paint film. When you sacrifice too much clearcoat, 1.) you have to protect the finish more frequently; like monthly, or 2.) the film build will fail, and you'll have clearcoat failure - terrible, cracking, unstoppable deterioration. In this case, the only solution is to refinish the panel.

 

So, sanding is a good thing. It can make the paint showcar-like. Yes. But it should be performed with the greatest care imaginable AND with plenty of experience. I don't think that any personal daily driver is worth the risk, especially on the long run.

 

Yes, a paint thickness gauge is absolutely essential. You'll need a rotary to remove the sanding marks.

[ufourya]

Hi ufourya,

 

Although you have 4 posts already, welcome to the forum!

 

There is a definite chance to screw up wetsanding when you are inexperienced.

 

The paint film is a delicate, thin layer and the clearcoat, residing at the top is only a few microns thick. A factory paint is around 80-150 microns, a respray is around 250-400, but after a healthy panel banging the respray could be more than 800-900 microns (lots of primer/filler/poor body job/etc.).

 

Generally you have to play in the upper third of the clearcoat to be safe. UV protection swims up to the top layer when the paint is hardening. The orange peel effect is an unfortunate result of today's waterborne, thin and runny paints. When you inspect a car, the horizontal panels have no or generally less orange peel than the verticals. The thin paint can level better there, but on the vertical panels it cannot level and shows this typical flaw.

 

It is indeed disgusting, but it has a strange benefit: abrasive processes (washing, drying, dusting, etc.) can attack the "hills" of the orange peel while the valley remain intact. This ensures that the finish will have an acceptable shine to the untrained average eye. However, when you frequently clean your car in a swirlomatic tunnel wash, the brushes will take away the gloss of the hills and the valleys will stay shiny. You'll see a marmory surface. This is important info, because when you start wet (or dry = less aggressive) sanding the finish, you go over the area very lightly. No pressure. You will see a marmory surface where the hills are matte, flat and the valleys are shiny. Now you are reducing the orange peel, but you start to sand away the UV protection. Where it is still shiny (valleys), the film has the original protection, but where it is flat, you are already removing it. If you want to go further, you can sand a bit more to make the surface uniform. In the moment you reached this, you should stop. Always think of the UV protection of the paint film. When you sacrifice too much clearcoat, 1.) you have to protect the finish more frequently; like monthly, or 2.) the film build will fail, and you'll have clearcoat failure - terrible, cracking, unstoppable deterioration. In this case, the only solution is to refinish the panel.

 

So, sanding is a good thing. It can make the paint showcar-like. Yes. But it should be performed with the greatest care imaginable AND with plenty of experience. I don't think that any personal daily driver is worth the risk, especially on the long run.

 

Yes, a paint thickness gauge is absolutely essential. You'll need a rotary to remove the sanding marks.

 

Bence, thank you for the welcome and double thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Very informative. Hey, I'll start on the hood and if I screw it up I can always get a carbon fiber replacement, right?

[Taylormade 1]

Hi Ufourya I just sign today as proud member. We at TaylorMade offer this type of service . I am and have been in detailing since the early 90'. I currently attend washtenaw community college autobody/collision program in annarbor,MI. We have been on Rides,Mtv on rides the show was titled "SummerSchool"for(GM) were we did a convt. 70' chevelle for the Sema show as well as a (forFORD)Ford 500 converted to a (2) door with a rear GT-40 motor in it "awesome ride" I also have done work for celebs, Athele. etc. My very first time I wet-sand(Ferrari/green) Idid a excellent job, my teachers marvel and tell me that they can't believe for someone who doesn't do this type of work everyday how good I can paint and do body work, and told them that I love detailing cars, and I was opening a full shop in the area thats greatly needed(no competition) of my type of work. I am some what old-school, I love my milwaukee rotory polisher/buffer with my wool pad(lamb). Depending on the nature of problem, to get the best results I would use (#600,800,1000,1500,3000) sandpapers (3m) and then use a high-end compond,polish.wax,sealantand finishout with a foam pad( white waffle&grey finish pad) I used Hi-temp (#357) back in the day which had superior results. Thanks to people like a Anthony Orosco, which me and my wife have e-mail him on our business plan, the products contribute alot to a persons skill/technique. You must and I mean you must use top-notch products!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have even painted BLACK, wet-sanded,polished/buffed with deep-depth gloss no swirls ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ever. I would seen pics, but pics can be altered!!!!!!!!!! believe me trust me thats why peers call me "BLACKFATHER". Best of luck, and may you and your family have a heathly/weathly blessed year TaylorMade.

[ehall]

Okay Taylormade. I'm going to try to put all of this into one post, but in the future, if you can't figure out how to do it, just copy and paste all that you want into one reply, please.

I have yet to figure out how to clean this up.

Also, just a quick tip, since you are going to school to be a professional, people do, and will, judge you by the way in which you choose to communicate with others. That means that punctuation and spelling count. Just a tip. No offense intended.

Welcome to the board.

E

[Bence]

Ufourya, using coarse papers on thin OEM finishes is a very dangerous thing. You won't need any more aggressive than 2000 grit. On thicker, custom paint, a more aggressive approach is a doable thing, but OEM is a different story. Playing with the upper 3rd of the clear (not the entire film build just the clear only!) is risky. You don't know where the bells sprayed a thicker layer, and where the clear is disturbingly thin. Avoid edges, lower curves, etc., where the clear may be thin, unless you want to strike through it and encounter a nice spot, where the color starts to get lighter than the surroundings.

 

After using a 2000 paper, it is recommended to follow up gently with a 4000, but you can go and refine it up to 12.000 grit. It is surely overkill, but produces a very fine finish nevertheless.

[ehall]

Ufourya, using coarse papers on thin OEM finishes is a very dangerous thing. You won't need any more aggressive than 2000 grit. On thicker, custom paint, a more aggressive approach is a doable thing, but OEM is a different story. Playing with the upper 3rd of the clear (not the entire film build just the clear only!) is risky. You don't know where the bells sprayed a thicker layer, and where the clear is disturbingly thin. Avoid edges, lower curves, etc., where the clear may be thin, unless you want to strike through it and encounter a nice spot, where the color starts to get lighter than the surroundings.

 

After using a 2000 paper, it is recommended to follow up gently with a 4000, but you can go and refine it up to 12.000 grit. It is surely overkill, but produces a very fine finish nevertheless.

FWIW I'm even afraid of 3-4000. It REALLY doesn't take much.